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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) @sendmail .... BCC (Read 4446 times)
SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #15 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:35am
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Mark -

As I said, even adding a cc before the bcc did not work for me. 

Before I even continue testing it, are you saying that in order to use the programming statement to include a BCC you MUST include a CC? 

As I said earlier, I don't want a CC to show.  If I MUST use the CC then it negates any value of the BCC - at least for me - and at least in the manner in which I am currently trying to use it.

Thanks!
  

- Spencer

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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #16 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:41am
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No idea, if it is required. I only have access to a couple of mail servers.
  

Mark Lasersohn&&Programmer&&Lantica Software, LLC
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SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #17 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:45am
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Well, then I am still left with my earlier question.

Since everything works the way I want sending it from my e-mail provider,

with no intererence from them or my ISP, then what is the cause of the problem?
  

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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #18 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 12:54am
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There is no SMTP that does not "interfere" in some way. SMTP is a standard that is supported in name only. Every server is more or less "forgiving" about what they expect versus what they receive.

If it makes you feel any better, when we wrote and tested @sendmail, we were on Road Runner (the same as you), up here in Ohio - so if there is any descrepency, RR introduced it recently or locally to Florida.

If there is a problem with Road Runner and the inclusion of a BCC with no CC, it is because of a double semicolon in the RCPT list (a portion of the SMTP protocol). The standard allows for this, but Verizon nor Adelphia's SMTP servers accept that as legal - though both will still send to the "TO" address, but skip the BCC - returning no error.
  

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SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #19 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 1:17am
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Mark -

I have to tell you honestly, that I feel like I am hitting my head against a wall.

Agreed that I don't know the nuances of all the programming involved in the various components of this issue.

But I do know logic.

If the SMTP is interfering with my sending a BCC then why does it work without any problem when I send the e-mail from my e-mail server.  If it is the SMTP causing the problem then I would think it would affect any e-mail I tried to send from any source.

It is only when I try to send it from within Sesame that it doesn't work.

I just tried it again from my e-mail program I sent it TO myself with the CC field EMPTY and a BCC to Spencer@SilversOlutions.org.  (aka SOS),  I received the TO email, the notice from SilversOlutionS.org that an e-mail was received and the forwarded e-mail (sent as a BCC to SOS) forwarded to me at road runner (by SOS).

Again, if the SMTP were the "fault" then how could I do this?

Once again, I am allowing for the fact that there is much I don't know ... but so far, none of the responses given me have provided a logical solution other than to point at something going on within Sesame itself.
  

- Spencer

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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #20 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 1:37am
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SMTP is not at fault. Variations in SMTP are at fault. SMTP is a conversation based on a set of rules. There is a great deal of "slack" in those rules.

Sesame is sending the email strictly to the SMTP standard, but that does not mean that the server is prepared to interpret what is sent. In the case of the BCC with no CC, Sesame will send an "empty" RCPT. It may well be that your server does not like that - even though it is legal SMTP.

Your dedicated email program may not send the empty RCPT, also perfectly legal.
  

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SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #21 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 1:47am
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Mark -

Quote:
In the case of the BCC with no CC, Sesame will send an "empty" RCPT.


Quote:
Your dedicated email program may not send the empty RCPT, also perfectly legal.


Aha, maybe that's the clue.

I don't have any idea what an RCPT is but it really doesn't matter.

If MY "dedicated email program" may not be sending the empty RCPT ... and it is perfectly legal ... and it WORKS

then why can't you fix Sesame to not send the empty RCPT and have it work, too, the way at least several of us want it to and the way it would be expected from the @sendmail command?

Since it sounds like that is a "variable" or "distinction" between my e-mail server (which works) and @sendmail (which doesn't work - and I'm only referring to the BCC issue - the rest of it works like a charm) then I would think it is well worth your giving  it a shot.  

That might just be the solution we are looking for.  
  

- Spencer

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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #22 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 1:58am
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It might be. It might not be.

Without being able to see the conversation between Sesame and any mail servers other than the several I have access to - I cannot say.
  

Mark Lasersohn&&Programmer&&Lantica Software, LLC
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SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #23 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 2:54am
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Mark -

Again, I'm baffled. 

Why can't you just TRY it?

Or play with a copy of the programm as you do with your "hot fixes" and I'll be glad to try it.

It seems to me that's one way to find out which works better; the way it is currently set up or using one of the other options available.
  

- Spencer

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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #24 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 2:59am
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I did just try it.

But since you have already said that it didn't work for you even when you did specify both a CC and a BCC... there's not much point in pursuing this direction.
  

Mark Lasersohn&&Programmer&&Lantica Software, LLC
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SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #25 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 8:25am
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Mark -

Quote:
But since you have already said that it didn't work for you even when you did specify both a CC and a BCC... there's not much point in pursuing this direction.


MEA CULPA!!!

I found something I was overlooking when modifiying my mass update programming.  In case anyone's interested, I'll be glad to explain it (after I get some sleep).

I'll also share the 7 tests (with minor variations between them) that I made.

But the bottom line is that I was wrong about one point ... and that might just prove helpful.  When I add a CC before the BCC, it is properly executed.

I receive 3 copies (To, CC, BCC) (along with the notification that comes from SOS to acknowledge receipt of the mail).

So ... that being the case, I would very much appreciate it, if I would be able to try the programming WITHOUT sending the "blank" value for the CC (I believe you referred to it as an RCPT).

I cannot help but feel that there MUST be a solution for this and I'll do everything I can to help uncover it.  "People" created computers, so "people" ought to be able to make them perform any way we want.

And, by the way, you said that you tried it ... but you didn't say what the outcome was.   Did it, by any chance,  succeed?
« Last Edit: Jan 15th, 2006 at 5:40pm by SpencerWulwick »  

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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #26 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 3:23pm
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Quote:
Mark -


MIA CULPA!!!

I found something I was overlooking when modifiying my mass update programming.  In case anyone's interested, I'll be glad to explain it (after I get some sleep).

I'll also share the 7 tests (with minor variations between them) that I made.

But the bottom line is that I was wrong about one point ... and that might just prove helpful.  When I add a CC before the BCC, it is properly executed.

I receive 3 copies (To, CC, BCC) (along with the notification that comes from SOS to acknowledge receipt of the mail).

So ... that being the case, I would very much appreciate it, if I would be able to try the programming WITHOUT sending the "blank" value for the CC (I believe you referred to it as an RCPT).

No. They are not the same thing. One is derived from the other.
Quote:
I cannot help but feel that there MUST be a solution for this and I'll do everything I can to help uncover it.  "People" created computers, so "people" ought to be able to make them perform any way we want.

There is a solution. The problem is that there are many solutions, and what works on your SMTP server, may not work on mine. When SMTP was first developed, a client could connect to any SMTP server in the world, and use it to send email. Later, they discovered that that was being abused by spammers, and some SMTP servers (like yours in FLA) decided that they would only except email from servers in the same stated domain - and did so without a change in SMTP. Later still, other servers decided that that was too inconvenient and started requiring a password and login (the EHLO format). Later still, others needed that login and password to be pre-encrypted. Even later, others decided to use a different encryption scheme. On and on...

The changes I just described, encompass only one portion of the SMTP format - the first line sent by a client to the server. SMTP has several hundred other "portions". Many of which have undergone similar transitions over the years.

Dedicated email programs can afford tens of thousands of lines of code needed to accomodate the variations, developments, and new capabilities of SMTP servers. Sesame has to, and should, develop to the most common denominators. When the @sendmail code was originally written, the "HELO" format was most common. Now, the "EHLO" format is most common. Because that is a major change, Sesame 2.0 implements a "dropback" - using EHLO as the default, but dropping back to HELO if EHLO does not succeed.

Because dedicated email programs usually support either command line or DDE, Sesame users can (in an some cases should), use @Shell or @ASynchShell (or in 2.0 - @CreateProcess) to take advantage of the familiarity and capabilities of their own email programs. If your email program cannot be used from command line, here are the first results from a simple Google search for "command line email client":

http://www.febooti.com/products/command-line-email/
http://www.beyondlogic.org/solutions/cmdlinemail/cmdlinemail.htm
http://email-tools.softlandmark.com/command_line_mail_tools/Softabar_Command_Lin...
http://caspian.dotconf.net/menu/Software/SendEmail/
http://www.exclamationsoft.com/exclamationsoft/default.asp
http://www.blat.net/194/
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/E-mail/E-mail-Clients/AutoMail.shtml
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/NotesCliEmail?open&S_TACT=105AGX13&S_CMP=LSDL...
http://www.soft32.com/download_9676.html

There are many hundreds of these, ranging in price from free to $50. Linux comes with the original "mail" program as part of the OS.

Quote:
And, by the way, you said that you tried it ... but you didn't say what the outcome was.   Did it, by any chance,  succeed?


As I stated, it worked for me on the two mail servers I have access to at home (Verizon and Adelphia). Both of which require the EHLO format, as opposed to the HELO format your mail server uses (I checked yours as well using telnet). So when you stated that putting a CC in the @sendmail did not work for you, I believed that your server was having a different problem.

  

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SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #27 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 6:09pm
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Mark -

I appreciate all the feeback you gave me; however, much of it is over my head (and truthfully, I don't mind if it stays there).  lol 

Except for one point:

Quote:
So when you stated that putting a CC in the @sendmail did not work for you, I believed that your server was having a different problem.


and in an earlier message:

Quote:
But since you have already said that it didn't work for you even when you did specify both a CC and a BCC... there's not much point in pursuing this direction.


So, I'm hoping that since we now know it IS the same problem there is a point to pursuing this direction.

Again from everything I've read - and a couple of additional tests I made this morning, I still think there must be a solution, that would work on your two servers, and mine, and perhaps most others and "yes", perhaps not, but we won't know if it isn't tried. 

In any event, I made a couple of additional tests just now that are also revealing.

I sent an email with a "bogus" (but valid format, i.e. Mail@Sesame.com) cc address.  I received two E-mails, one for the "To" address and the other for the "BCC" address.  The one with the "CC" Address was returned to me as "undeliverable."

I then sent an e-mail with two dots in the CC Address.  I received 2 E-mails, one for the "To" Address and the other for the "BCC" address.  And, once again, the one with the "CC" address was returned to me as "undeliverable."
  

- Spencer

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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #28 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 7:13pm
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We will look into this, Spencer.

What you need to be aware of is that it is a moving target. We may be able to put in a protocol change that will make your specific case work. However, tomorrow, your ISP may implement a new spam filtering technique and/or make a change to their configuration file that will break it again. BCC is especially subject to aggresive spam filtering. What we are doing now is perfectly legal and does not return an error. The ISP has simply decided that they, in particular, choose to not respect a BCC without a CC. We have no idea what they may choose not to respect tomorrow. Let alone the thousands of other ISPs, each of whom can make thier own choices. Each ISP is able to define their own specific rulesets. No two ISPs deal with mail in the exact same way.

While you may not care about these types of issues, we must make every effort to solve these things in ways that will serve our user base as a whole. We don't have the luxury of saying "Well, it works for Spencer and everyone else will just have to live with it." The sendmail protocol is incredibly complex and utterly configurable. Add to that the myriad of special spam filtering techniques, and we have quite a needle to thread.

We understand that you have an issue. We need to do some research to find out not only what we can do about it, but what we should do about it. This one may not get taken care of until 2.0, where the @SendMail command has been expanded to cover other current issues like authentication.
  

- Hammer
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SpencerWulwick
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Re: @sendmail .... BCC
Reply #29 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 8:02pm
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Erika -

That sounds wonderful.  Certainly, I realize that all aspects have to be considered and that they are rapidly changing especially with regard to E-mail.  Again, all I'm asking for is what I consider "reasonable" consideration and then if indeed, something can't be done ... well, it just can't be done.

I would never expect anyone to modify a program to work for me - that  might or might not work for others.  In this particular case, though, it seems that the BCC is not working (without using the CC) for anyone and that Mark has a way of making in work in at least his two trials and probably for me as well.  That being the case, it might also work for "Steve in Texas" and who knows who else.  At the very least, it will at least be something better than we now have. 

Now for some "really good" news, for me at least.  I just retrieved the records (in a working database), of 11 of my friends.  I typed the body of my e-mail once and clicked on my "Send All" command button.  (The E-mail I sent, asked people to "forward" it back to me, so I could verify receipt and structure).  I received a copy (BCC having used a "bogus" CC) of each of the 11 E-mails.

Although I just did this a short time ago, I have already received two of the E-mails forwarded back to me.  Each was properly - and personally addressed - and structured precisely as I wanted.   I now have a fully-functional mass e-mail process in place ..... without having to enter even one single e-mail address.  Yippee!!!

I will, of course, be glad to share what I came up with, with anyone who is interested.
  

- Spencer

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