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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) F000 Oh brother! (Read 4149 times)
Bob_Hansen
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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #15 - Mar 30th, 2006 at 8:38pm
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Hello Scott.

I did get a major difference in Firefox vs. MSIE.

It appears that you may need to modify your HTML for compatibility.  IK usually check all HTML output against a set of standards.  This can be done at http://validator.w3.org/

When I ran your page, it reported that there were 33 errors.  The detaled report identifies the lines that have the problems, the nature of the problem, and the solution to the problem.

I suspect that if you fix all 33 problems, you will have acceptable output in Firefox.  And since you are using this page as a form vs. just text for reading, that the compliance needs may be more strict.  Different web page developer programs use different, sometimes proprietary techniques for "forms".  If you conform to these standards, you have a much better chance of always  providing the user with a usable web page.

Here is an except from their site:
Quote:
The Markup Validator is a free service by W3C  that helps check the validity of Web documents.

Most Web documents are written using markup languages, such as HTML or XHTML. These languages are defined by technical specifications, which usually include a machine-readable formal grammar (and vocabulary). The act of checking a document against these constraints is called validation, and this is what the Markup Validator does.

Validating Web documents is an important step which can dramatically help improving and ensuring their quality, and it can save a lot of time and money (read more on why validating matters). Validation is, however, neither a full quality check, nor is it strictly equivalent to checking for conformance to the specification.

This validator can process documents written in most markup languages. Supported document types include the HTML (through HTML 4.01) and XHTML (1.0 and 1.1) family, MathML, SMIL and SVG (1.0 and 1.1, including the mobile profiles). The Markup Validator can also validate Web documents written with an SGML or XML DTD, provided they use a proper document type declaration.

Why should I validate my HTML pages?

One of the important maxims of computer programming is: Be conservative in what you produce; be liberal in what you accept.

Browsers follow the second half of this maxim by accepting Web pages and trying to display them even if they're not legal HTML. Usually this means that the browser will try to make educated guesses about what you probably meant. The problem is that different browsers (or even different versions of the same browser) will make different guesses about the same illegal construct; worse, if your HTML is really pathological, the browser could get hopelessly confused and produce a mangled mess, or even crash.

That's why you want to follow the first half of the maxim by making sure your pages are legal HTML. The best way to do that is by running your documents through one or more HTML validators.


This service does not mean you have a "valid" web page, but it does check for compliance with correct HTML syntax.

So you may need to create your HTML file, correct it using the validator tools, then modify the source that generates your html file.   

I also ran your page through another validator at http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/. ; This also listed multiple errors, but does not provide as much information for correction.

The end result of this begs the question: When Sesame "prints a form" are they using a technique that uses proper HTML syntax for web page standards?  It is disturbing to see that two independant validators show so many errors.  Is this because output was intended as a report only, and not for web page publishing, so a lower standard is used?
« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2006 at 6:47am by Bob_Hansen »  



Bob Hansen
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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #16 - Mar 30th, 2006 at 9:00pm
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We do appear to have a minor issue with closing the HEAD tag in the wrong place, but the issues reported by the validators are not causing the problem. Most of the validation errors are not meaningful. For example, we don't have an ACTION tag on the Form, but the Form is not intended to submit and has no script (action) it can run. Most of the errors are related to TEXTAREA attributes, which are being specified as part of the style instead of using the older HTML syntax.

The printing problem is caused by the fact that, while Firefox is rendering the page on screen just fine, it's print engine is not managing to translate to pages. This is because,in order to make it look like your Form, everything uses absolute positioning. The absolute positioning creates coordinates that are much longer than a page. It looks fine on screen, but Firefox can't figure out how to get it onto paper.
  

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Ray the Reaper
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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #17 - Mar 30th, 2006 at 9:18pm
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I just took a copy of Scott's HTML form and made it "Valid" in the eyes of the Markup Validator. Print Preview still only shows one page with items hanging off the page in both Netscape 7.2 and Firefox 1.5.0.1

-Ray
  

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Bob_Hansen
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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #18 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 5:32am
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Thanks for making that page "valid" Ray.  Can you send me the "valid" page?  I will submit this as a bug to Firefox.  Response there is not as quick as here (nothing is), but is much better than submitting for a change to MSIE.  I do know there will be a response.  I have had two earlier bugs corrected by them.

And thanks to Erika for the explanation about the text area of coding errors.  There definitely is a difference between a Sesame form and a web page form that needs a Submit, etc., so much less code is needed.
  



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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #19 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 6:43am
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Cancel my last request Ray. 

I modified the code myself to make it "valid".  Wanted to do some digging into this some more.  I am trying various combos ot rows/cols values, etc. to see impacts on different browsers.....Just one of those tech things I am now curious about, and need to get a better understanding.

Thanks to Scott for pointing this out.
Thanks to all others for the inputs.


  



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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #20 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 2:00pm
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FYI,

I just ran the validator on www.yahoo.com, and it came up with "Result: Failed validation, 295 errors".

www.google.com produced 50 errors. www.mozilla.com produced 4 errors.

Almost every page I tested produced errors, with the exception of their own site validator.w3.org (of course), and www.microsoft.com.

I even built a new page from scratch in FrontPage 2002 with very little info in it. I did not construct the HTML, I let the FrontPage interface do that for me, and that produced 2 errors.

I guess Sesame is not alone, most pages do seem to have errors.
  


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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #21 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 6:09pm
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I will submit this as a bug to Firefox.  Response there is not as quick as here (nothing is), but is much better than submitting for a change to MSIE.

I'd be interested in hearing what they say, if anything.

I guess now that everyone has had a look at the type of Q&A form I'm dealing with you probably have a better idea why I ask so many left-field questions.  You should see the programming!  Fifteen years years worth of added bells and whistles ("If I type in customer code 234 I need the Purchase order field to say '606587' and if it doesn't a message has to pop up to tell the user that Acme-Wiley needs a 6-digit P.O. starting with '6'.  Oh, and make the computer play "Yankee Doodle' when that happens, and make me a nice cup of tea."  "Yes boss, I'll get right on that.") that all need to be stripped out now JUST BECAUSE I CAN!  I'll add it back in later if it's needed.  Acme-Wiley hasn't used us since 1987!
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #22 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 6:41pm
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Quote:
I will submit this as a bug to Firefox.  Response there is not as quick as here (nothing is), but is much better than submitting for a change to MSIE.


Another Quote:
I'd be interested in hearing what they say, if anything.


I would not recommend that this be reported as a bug to Mozilla/Firefox. There is, as far as I can tell, no determinable "correct" behavior when attempting to print fields at absolute coordinates that are beyond arbitrary page coordinates. In other words, what firefox is doing is just as correct as what IE is doing - even if we don't like it.

The problem firefox and IE has to beat is that HTML/CSS is built to use an arbitrary resolution device (so that a browser, or a page of paper can each be addressed in scale without reference to the hardware capabilities of the device used to render the HTML). So, for example, lets say that IE has determined that the end of a page is at a Y coordinate of 1000. And further, the CSS dictates that a field is to be placed at a coordinate of 1100. IE, would then cause that field to be placed on a subsequent page at a Y coordinate of 100. But what would then be the behavior if a larger piece of paper? Would IE increase the page break to 2000, or would everything simply print larger?

Firefox fares no better. They have determined that the behavior of rendering that exceeds an arbitrary distance should be undetermined. The spec supports this, basically telling browser makers to do as they please unless otherwise specified. So, for example, a browser could determine that all coordinates fall within a single page, and scale accordingly.

Basically, all three approaches: print multiple pages (IE); fail if the coordinate exceed unspecified boundaries (Mozilla/Firefox); or scale so that the page encompasses all specified coordinates, are essentially "correct" behavior.

CSS will eventually take care of this. Print style sheets that determine this behavior are already in the next CSS spec, and are partially implemented in some browsers.

If you prefer the printing behavior of IE, and you are using a Windows based computer, the Print To HTML command does produce a HTML file that can be printed without using either browser by right clicking on that file and selecting "Print" from the right click menu.
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #23 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 7:09pm
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If you prefer the printing behavior of IE, and you are using a Windows based computer, the Print To HTML command does produce a HTML file that can be printed without using either browser by right clicking on that file and selecting "Print" from the right click menu.

I had forgotten that, thanks for the reminder.

Is there a way to set Sesame to use IE as it's default HTML display program, or do the system setting override this?  I know I can use the Shell command to call IE with a command button, but can this be done from the built-in menus for "on the fly" printouts?
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #24 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 7:20pm
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Hello Scott,

Have a look at the SESAME_PRINT_PREVIEW_COMMAND Enviroment Variable on page 463 of the Sesame 1.1 User's Guide.

-Ray
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #25 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 7:39pm
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SESAME_PRINT_PREVIEW_COMMAND

OK, thanks.  Working on it but I'm not there yet.  I set the system variable to "SESAME_PRINT_PREVIEW_COMMAND" and gave it a value of "C:\Program Files\Internet Explorer\iexplore.exe" (with the quotes because I lifted it right out of the icon's properties).

Then I followed previous instructions: Run mass update to display the field names, F10 for expand mode, Record Commands, Printing Commands, Print Form to HTML.

Still opens in Firefox.  Did a reboot in case the variable needed that.  Ditto.

What did I miss?
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #26 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 7:49pm
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However: it's working for my Reports - the previews are opening in IE.

Curious thing, though.  When I run a preview, a command window opens, then IE opens and shows the report.  Meanwhile, the command window is just a black screen (because it's shelling out to IE?  I dunno.)  Also meanwhile, my Sesame window is completely blank, staying that way until I close IE, whereupon the command window closes and the Sesame interface returns.

Is this normal behavior?
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #27 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 7:58pm
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Hello Scott,

Quote:
What did I miss?


You did not miss anything. I on the other hand missed that Print Form to HTML did not use that Enviroment variable and only reports opening in preview do.

-Ray
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #28 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 8:03pm
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No problem; you taught me something new and that's always good.  I'll certainly make use of it somewhere, somehow, down the line.

But now you've got me thinking...can a report be crafted that will do what Mass Update -> Print Form to HTML is trying to do?
  

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Re: F000 Oh brother!
Reply #29 - Mar 31st, 2006 at 8:09pm
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However: it's working for my Reports - the previews are opening in IE.

Curious thing, though.  When I run a preview, a command window opens, then IE opens and shows the report.  Meanwhile, the command window is just a black screen (because it's shelling out to IE?  I dunno.)  Also meanwhile, my Sesame window is completely blank, staying that way until I close IE, whereupon the command window closes and the Sesame interface returns.

Is this normal behavior?


Yes that is normal behavoir. Sesame is shelling out to the command specified in the enviroment varaible.

-Ray
  

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